New York Times Opinion
19 March 2026
The idea that white people — and white men in particular — face discrimination has become something of an obsession on the American right. It’s a view that my guest this week shares. Jeremy Carl was nominated to a State Department post by the Trump administration, which sparked a lot of controversy. Carl is the author of “The Unprotected Class,” in which he makes the case that white Americans are in danger of becoming “second-class citizens.” I wanted to know what he thinks constitutes anti-white discrimination and whether focusing on it inevitably leads to white nationalism. After we taped this interview, Carl withdrew his nomination, acknowledging that he lacked enough support to be confirmed. 0:00 - Intro 01:59 - Jeremy Carl’s trajectory and State Department Nomination 05:24 - The Civil Rights Act and rise of anti-white Discrimination 12:20 - The impact of immigration on white Americans 24:53 - The "radicalization" of D.E.I. 37:37 - Carl’s provocative language and controversial tweets 51:06 - “White culture” vs. “civic nationalism” 01:01:00 - The fours pillars of “Americanness” (A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.) Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, Interesting Times with Ross Douthat. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
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